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#73227 - 10/18/04 03:41 PM Le mappe "elusive"...
pyr Offline
Utente temporaneamente sospeso

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1014
Loc: Segrate (MI)
x AMN e tutti:

nuovo treath sulle carte e mappe "elusive" di Zerzura.

Cominciamo col mappamondo di el-Idrisi: pane per i denti di AMN!

N.B.: le carte arabe sono sempre ribaltate: il Nord è in basso, il Sud in alto.

[ 18 Ottobre 2004: Messaggio editato da: pyr ]

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#73228 - 10/18/04 08:14 PM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
Stefano Laberio Offline

Senior

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 4861

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#73229 - 10/18/04 10:11 PM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
raskebir Offline
Senior

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 1414
Loc: Piemonte
Chi ci racconta il mappamondo?
_________________________
raskebir
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#73230 - 10/18/04 11:32 PM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
pyr Offline
Utente temporaneamente sospeso

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1014
Loc: Segrate (MI)
Mi auguro AMS!

Quel poco che ne so su IdrMap3:

il "gebel gaslani" è il Gilf, "santaria" è Siwa, "al baharain" è Barhein, il "gebel al tailamun" è la "Montagna di Amon", "misr" è il Cairo, "al faium" è il Fayum e "al uahat al dahila" il gruppo delle oasi di Dakhla.

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#73231 - 10/18/04 11:57 PM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
Stefano Laberio Offline

Senior

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 4861
Il Marchesi indica l'ouadi Abd El Malech da ben altra parte...
Abd El Malech Marchesi 1933

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#73232 - 10/19/04 09:44 AM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
pyr Offline
Utente temporaneamente sospeso

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1014
Loc: Segrate (MI)
D'accordo, nella cartografia anni '30 è così: l'Uadi Abd el-Malek è nell'Uweinat. Quello del Gilf fu coniato da Almasy, in base a informatori locali (essenzialmente dalla guida Tebu "Nikki").

A riguardo, ho visto il monumentale Atlante (mi sembra in 5 o 6 volumi formato "elefante") dell'Egitto pubblicato dal principe Kemal el-Din: una copia si trova ancora al "Desert Institute" del Cairo. Purtroppo non è possibile fotocopiarlo in quella sede: chissà che non se ne possa in futuro occupare il "Zerzura "Club". Dal poco che sono riuscito a vedere, ci sono tutte le carte pubblicate fino alla fine degli anni '20 dell'Egitto. Purtroppo non sono riuscito a trovare la più importante, quella del principe stesso, ma sicuramente ci sarà!

[ 19 Ottobre 2004: Messaggio editato da: pyr ]

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#73233 - 10/19/04 10:15 AM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
raskebir Offline
Senior

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 1414
Loc: Piemonte
Anni fa sono passato in un luogo chiamato Bahrein, a sud-est di Siwa, ricordo un lago con vicino grotte scavate nella roccia in cui erano ancora visibili teschi e ossa di antiche sepolture (forse di eremiti o monaci).

E' per caso lo stesso Bahrein (Al-Baharain) riportato circa al centro sulla 3a mappa di El Idrisi?

Se sì, cosa aveva di importante per esserci?

[ 19 Ottobre 2004: Messaggio editato da: raskebir ]
_________________________
raskebir
L.R.Def 90 200 TDI "Jamais Contente"
L.R.Def 110 Puma "Desert Queen"
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#73234 - 10/19/04 10:35 AM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
pyr Offline
Utente temporaneamente sospeso

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1014
Loc: Segrate (MI)
Sì, è quella.

Lì vicino i C. hanno trovato quello che ritengono siano i resti dell'armata di Cambise.

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#73235 - 10/19/04 10:41 AM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
raskebir Offline
Senior

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 1414
Loc: Piemonte
x pyr:
grazie dell'informazione, le notizie che ho finora appreso sul ritrovamento dei presunti resti dell'armata di Cambise sono però molto scarne, è possibile saperne qualcosa di più?

Qualcuno poi sa perchè Al-Baharain nell'antichità era così importante da essere riportato sul mappamondo?
_________________________
raskebir
L.R.Def 90 200 TDI "Jamais Contente"
L.R.Def 110 Puma "Desert Queen"
Toy L.C.125 Autom.

Top
#73236 - 10/19/04 11:26 AM Re: Le mappe "elusive"...
pyr Offline
Utente temporaneamente sospeso

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1014
Loc: Segrate (MI)
Baharein era fino in epoca medioevale araba in importante centro, vedi per es.:
http://www.archaeogate.it/egittologia/article.php?id=55

Per Cambise, la faccenda è attualmente per il SCA un dei massimi "Top Secrets". Ai C. (una volta tanto!) hanno fregato il ritrovamento; è stato fatto persino una trasmissione televisiva sull'argomento (credo che Stefano l'abbia registrata). Se vuoi la mia opinione: non è l'armata. Per il semplice fatto che Erodoto dice chiaramente che l'armata fu sepolta "...a metà strada tra Oasis (cioè Dakhla) e Siwa", ed a B. erano quasi arrivati all'oracolo.

Comunque se ti interessa l'argomento:

The Lost Army of Cambyses
By David Rohl
The sands of the Sahara Desert conceal an astonishing historical mystery – a mystery which has been known about for more than two millennia. Somewhere out there, within the vast desolate wilderness of the Western Desert, a mighty Persian army of fifty thousand men is buried with all their equipment. They disappeared without trace in 523 BC on their way to destroy the sacred Oracle of Siwa on the borders of Libya.

The quest to find the lost army of the Persians has been one of Egyptology's greatest challenges. Adventurers and archaeologists have been scouring the desert ever since western scholars began to uncover the pharaonic civilisation of the Nile valley at the beginning of the 19th century … but all to no avail. Over the last twenty years there have been several false sightings which have all turned out to be human remains from a much more recent conflict – Montgomery's campaign against Rommel's desert rats. This failure to come up with any tangible proof of the lost Persian army has led some historians to dismiss the story as a fanciful tale. But now Egyptian oil prospectors from Helwan University's Department of Geology appear to have finally found the pitiful remains of those unfortunate soldiers sent to their deaths on the whim of the mad Persian emperor Cambyses.

Evidence of this strange human tragedy is suddenly beginning to resurface as the wind-blown sand gives up its 2,500-year-old secret. As they surveyed an area just fifty kilometres from Siwa Oasis last month, the Helwan University geologists found themselves walking through dunes littered with fragments of textiles, daggers, arrow-heads, and the bleached bones of the men to whom they all these trappings belonged – everything in an excellent state of preservation, thanks to the desiccating qualities of the Saharan sand.

In 525 BC the Persian emperor Cambyses, son of Cyrus the Great, invaded Egypt and successfully overthrew the native Egyptian pharaoh, Psamtek III, last ruler of the 26th Dynasty. The Nile valley was subsumed into the mighty Persian Empire for much of the ensuing 193 years until Alexander the Great defeated Darius III and conquered Egypt in 332 BC.

We know very little about Cambyses through contemporary texts, but his reputation as a mad tyrannical despot has come down to us in the writings of the Greek historian Herodotus (440 BC) and a Jewish document from 407 BC known as 'The Demotic Chronicle' which speaks of the Persian king destroying all the temples of the Egyptian gods. Herodotus informs us that Cambyses was a monster of cruelty and impiety who, having witnessed the reverence with which the Egyptians regarded the sacred Apis bull of Memphis, fell into a rage, drew his dagger and plunged it into the bull-calf. The unfortunate animal died soon after and was buried with full pomp and ceremony in the underground vaults of the Serapeum at Sakkara.

The story of Cambyses' fit of jealousy towards the Apis bull – whether true or simply Greek propoganda – was intended to reflect his personal failures as a monarch and military leader. In the three short years of his rule over Egypt he personally led a disastrous campaign up the River Nile into Ethiopia, his ill-prepared mercenary forces having been forced to eat the flesh of their own colleagues as the meagre food supplies provided by the king ran out in the Nubian desert. The Persian army returned northwards in abject humiliation having failed even to encounter their enemy in battle. No doubt his already embittered Egyptian subjects were not much impressed by this folly and harboured thoughts of their own uprising against the Persian pharaoh. Cambyses had also planned a military campaign against Carthage, but this too was aborted because, on this occasion, the king's Phoenician sea captains refused to attack their kinfolk who had founded the Carthagian colony towards the end of the 8th century BC. In fact, the conquest of Egypt was Cambyses' only spectacular military success in his seven years of troubled rule over the Persian empire.

But Herodotus goes on to tell the story of the Persian king's greatest military calamity. On his way down to Ethiopia, Cambyses decided that the Oracle of Siwa, later made famous by Alexander's visit in 332 BC, posed a genuine threat to his rule over Egypt. He believed that the priests of Siwa were encouraging insurrection amongst the native Egyptians and that their destabilising influence had to be snuffed out. Upon reaching Thebes in Upper Egypt, and without thinking of the horrendous logistical problems of a prolonged desert campaign, he immediately ordered the despatch of 50,000 soldiers from the holy city, supported by a great train of pack-animals. Heading out west into the Sahara Desert, the Persian army reached the Kharga Oasis after seven days. Moving north through a string of smaller oases, the huge force eventually came to the last of the natural water springs at Bahariya. What then lay before them was the vast and inhospitable expanse of the Western Desert – with no water or shade from the burning sun for 325 kilometres or 30-days' march.

With what must have been a deep sense of trepidation the Persian generals commanded their men to march out in the direction of Siwa, which they knew lay somewhere off to the west, beyond the Sand Dune Sea and the great Kattara Depression. According to Herodotus (as later reported to him by the inhabitants of Siwa), after many days of struggle through the soft sand, the troops were resting one morning when calamity struck without warning. "As they were at their breakfast, a wind arose from the south, strong and deadly, bringing with it vast columns of whirling sand, which buried the troops and caused them utterly to disappear." Overwhelmed by the powerful sandstorm, men and animals alike were asphyxiated as they huddled together, gradually being enveloped in a sea of drift-sand.

But what of Cambyses? He, of course, had not accompanied his soldiers on their ill-fated campaign into the Sahara. The emperor was too busy leading the rest of his army into ignominious defeat on the equally ill-judged main campaign against Ethiopia. Upon his return to Egypt, the emperor was informed of the disappearance of his Saharan strike force. Soon after, a dark cloud of gloom descended upon him – a darkness from which he was never to re-emerge. It was at this time, or so it is said, that he attacked the Apis bull, believing that, by their joyous worship of the Egyptian deity, the local population were mocking their foreign overlord and his military catastrophes.

Back in the heartland of Persia, the population received news of Cambyses' catalogue of troubles in the far-distant land of the pharaohs. Some of the most influential nobles in the land now revolted, swearing allegiance to the king's younger brother Bardiya. With their support, the pretender to the great throne of Cyrus seized power in July 522 BC as Cambyses was returning to Persia. On hearing the news, as he passed through the Syrian town of Ecbatana, the king leapt onto his horse to ride at speed back to the capital. However, in his haste to mount his steed, Cambyses managed to stab himself in the thigh with his own dagger. At that moment, as the story goes, he began to recall an Egyptian prophecy told to him by the priests of Buto in which it was predicted that the king would die in Ecbatana. Cambyses had thought that the Persian summer capital of Ecbatana had been meant and that he would therefore die in contented old age. But now he realised that the prophecy had been fulfilled in a very different way here in Syrian Ecbatana. Still enveloped in his dark and disturbed mood, Cambyses decided that his fate had been sealed and simply lay down to await his end. The wound soon became gangrenous and the king died by 'own-death' (i.e. by his own actions), as the Persian texts put it, in early August of 522 BC.

Now, in the year AD 2000, the final chapter in the story of the mad Persian emperor and his lost army is about to be written. The Helwan University geologists have reported their discovery to Dr Mohamed el-Saghir of the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Cairo who is personally going to lead a multidisciplinary team of archaeologists, surveyors and geologists to investigate the find. The ten-kilometre-square site will be sifted with a fine tooth comb as the Egyptian specialists gradually uncover the remains left by one of history's most remarkable incidents.

What an opportunity this will be to learn about an ancient army with all its trappings of warfare. Nothing like this has ever come to light before. The Persian armed forces consisted of many elements, including companies of foreign mercenaries such as Greeks, Phoenicians, Carians, Cilicians, Medes and Syrians. We can expect excellent preservation of helmets, leather corselets, cloth garments, spears, bows, swords and daggers – a veritable treasure trove of military memorabilia. The rations and support equipment will all be there, ready for detailed analysis. Bone marrow can be sampled for DNA testing. Our knowledge of ancient warfare in the first millennium BC will be hugely enhanced by this astonishing discovery of the lost army of Emperor Cambyses.

oppure:



How the Sahara is finally giving up its secrets of the lost army
DAVID ROHL
It is a mystery which has perplexed Egyptologists for centuries and sent scores of adventurers and archaeologists scouring the vast wilderness of the Saharan Desert for clues. In 523 BC, a mighty Persian army of 50,000 men was said to have disappeared without trace in the desolate plains of the Western Desert.

Since the beginning of the 19th century, when Western scholars began to uncover the Pharaonic civilisation of the Nile valley, the quest to find the lost army of the Persians has proved one of Egyptology's greatest challenges.

Over the past 20 years there have been several false sightings. All turned out to be human remains from a much more recent conflict - Montgomery's Second World War campaign against Rommel's Afrika Korps. This failure to come up with any proof of the lost army has led some historians to dismiss the story as a fanciful tale - until now.

Two months ago, a team of Egyptian oil prospectors surveying an area just 50 kilometres from the lost army's intended destination - the Siwa Oasis on the border with Libya - found themselves walking through sand dunes littered with fragments of textiles, daggers, arrow heads and the bleached bones of the men to whom these trappings belonged. Finally, it seemed, the sands had begun to give up their secret.

Thanks to the desiccating qualities of the Saharan sand, the fragments found by the team from Helwan University's Department of Geology were in an excellent state of preservation, providing an unparalleled opportunity to learn about an ancient army and all its trappings of warfare.

When they disappeared more than two millennia ago, the ill-fated soldiers were on their way to destroy the sacred Oracle of Siwa, under orders from their leader, the mad Persian emperor Cambyses. The son of Cyrus the Great, Cambyses invaded Egypt in 525 BC and overthrew the pharaoh Psamtek III, last ruler of the 26th Dynasty. The Nile valley was subsumed into the mighty Persian Empire for much of the next 200 years until Alexander the Great defeated Darius III and conquered Egypt in 332 BC.

Little is known about Cambyses through contemporary texts but his reputation as a tyrannical despot has come down to us in the writings of the Greek historian Herodotus (440 BC) and a Jewish document from 407 BC known as The Demotic Chronicle which speaks of the Persian king destroying all the temples of the Egyptian gods.

Herodotus informs us that Cambyses was a monster of cruelty and impiety who, having witnessed the reverence with which the Egyptians regarded the sacred Apis bull of Memphis, fell into a rage, drew his dagger and plunged it into the bull-calf. The animal died soon after and was buried with full ceremony. "I have no doubt that Cambyses was completely out of his mind," comments Herodotus.

The tale of Cambyses's fit of jealousy towards the bull -whether true or simply Greek propaganda - was intended to reflect his personal failure as a monarch and military leader. In his seven years of troubled rule over the Persian empire, the conquest of Egypt was Cambyses's only spectacular military success.

Indeed, during the three years of his rule over Egypt, Cambyses suffered a number of military catastrophes. He personally led a disastrous campaign up the Nile into Ethiopia, during which his illprepared mercenary forces were compelled to eat the flesh of their own colleagues as the food supplies provided by the king ran out.

The Persian army eventually returned northward having failed even to encounter their enemy in battle. Cambyses's already embittered Egyptian subjects were doubtless unimpressed by this folly and harboured thoughts of their own uprising against him.

Cambyses had also planned a campaign against Carthage but this too was aborted because the king's Phoenician sea captains refused to attack their kinfolk who had founded the Carthaginian colony towards the end of the eighth century BC.

The story of the doomed army is also told by Herodotus. On his way down to Ethiopia, Cambyses decided that the Oracle of Siwa, later made famous by Alexander's visit in 332 BC, posed a threat to his rule over Egypt. He believed that the priests of Siwa were encouraging insurrection among the Egyptians and that their destabilising influence had to be snuffed out.

Upon reaching Thebes in Upper Egypt, and without thinking of the horrendous logistical problems of a prolonged desert campaign, Cambyses immediately ordered the despatch of 50,000 soldiers from the holy city, supported by a great train of pack-animals.

Marching west into the Sahara, the army eventually came to the last of the natural springs at Bahariya. What then lay before them was the vast Western Desert - with no water or shade for 30 days' march.

With what must have been a deep sense of trepidation the Persian generals commanded their men to march out in the direction of Siwa, which they knew lay somewhere to the west, beyond the Sand Dune Sea and the great Kattara Depression.

According to Herodotus (as later reported to him by the inhabitants of Siwa), after many days of struggle through the soft sand, the troops were resting one morning when calamity struck. "As they were at their breakfast, a wind arose from the south, strong and deadly, bringing with it vast columns of whirling sand, which buried the troops and caused them utterly to disappear."

Men and animals were asphyxiated as they huddled together, gradually being enveloped in a sea of drift-sand.

But what of Cambyses? He, of course, had not accompanied his soldiers on their doomed campaign. The emperor was too busy leading the rest of his army into defeat on the equally ill-judged main campaign against Ethiopia. On his return to Egypt, the emperor was informed of the disappearance of his Saharan strike force.

Soon after, a dark depression descended upon him from which he was never to emerge. It was at this time, or so it is said, that he attacked the Apis bull, believing that, by their joyous worship of the Egyptian deity, the local population were mocking their foreign overlord and his military catastrophes.

Back in Persia, the population received news of Cambyses's catalogue of troubles. Some of the most influential nobles now revolted, swearing allegiance to the king's younger brother Bardiya.

With their support, the pretender seized power in July 522 BC as Cambyses was returning to Persia. On hearing the news, as he passed through the Syrian town of Ecbatana, the king leapt on to his horse to speed back to the capital. However, in his haste to mount his steed, Cambyses accidentally stabbed himself in the thigh with his own dagger.

At that moment, so the story goes, he began to recall an Egyptian prophecy told to him by the priests of Buto in which it was predicted that the king would die in Ecbatana. Cambyses had always thought this meant the Persian summer capital of Ecbatana and that he would therefore die in contented old age. But now he realised that the prophecy had been fulfilled in a very different way here in Syrian Ecbatana.

Still in a disturbed mood, Cambyses decided that his fate had been sealed and simply lay down to await his end. The wound soon became gangrenous and the king died by "own-death" (by his own actions), as the Persian texts put it, in early August, 522 BC.

Now, the final chapter in the story of the mad Persian emperor and his lost army is about to be written. The Helwan University geologists have reported their discovery to Dr Mohamed el-Saghir of the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Cairo who has said he is personally going to lead a huge team of archaeologists, surveyors and geologists to investigate the find.

The 10-kilometre-square site will be sifted as the Egyptian specialists gradually uncover the remains left by one of history's most remarkable incidents. Nothing like this has ever come to light before and the team can expect to find a treasure trove of military memorabilia.

The Persian forces consisted of many elements, including foreign mercenaries such as Greeks, Phoenicians, Carians, Cilicians, Medes and Syrians. Their helmets, leather corselets, garments, spears, bows, swords and daggers will all be there ready for analysis, along with their rations and support equipment. Bone marrow from the soldiers can be sampled for DNA testing. Our knowledge of ancient warfare in the first millennium BC is sure to be hugely enhanced by this astonishing - and accidental - discovery of the lost army of Emperor Cambyses.
© Express Newspapers, 2000



o ancora:

DNA Helps Unravel Ancient Persian Riddle

By Michael Theodoulou
The Christian Science Monitor
December 8, 2000


A shiver of excitement rippled through the team of Egyptian oil prospectors when they chanced upon human bones, daggers, and arrowheads scattered across the shifting sand dunes. But it was nothing compared with what Egyptologists felt when they learned of the discovery.

What set hearts thumping was not so much the relics of ancient warfare, which are common in Egypt. It was their location not far from the Siwa oasis near the Libyan border that raised hopes of unravelling an ancient mystery that has baffled scholars.

It was in this area that a powerful Persian army of 50,000 men was said to have vanished without a trace in 523 BC. The desert strike force was dispatched by the "mad" Persian King Cambyses II, the son of Cyrus the Great, to sack a sacred oracle in Siwa that had prophesied his downfall. His men were engulfed by a cataclysmic sandstorm in the vast desert before reaching their destination, according to Herodotus, the celebrated 5th-century BC Greek historian who portrayed Cambyses as mad, bad, and dangerous.

Several attempts in the past century to find any evidence of the hapless warriors ended in failure, and some historians suspected Herodotus fabricated the tale.

Now, four years after the finds, a new quest into the inhospitable western desert could finally solve the ancient riddle.

An Egyptian expedition including archaeologists, geophysicists, and other scientists is to survey the area this month using satellite technology while the bones will be sampled for DNA testing.

The mission will be led by Dr. Mohamed el-Saghir of the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Cairo, who believes the long-lost warriors may lie beneath the Saharan sands. "I think we will find Cambyses' army," he says.

After sacking the Temple of Amon in Siwa, later made famous by a visit of Alexander the Great in 332 BC and which still exists on a hilltop there today, Cambyses' men were to have attacked the Libyans and reduced them to slavery, according to Herodotus.

However, nature sealed the fate of the invaders when they were midway through their journey, wrote Herodotus, who heard accounts from the inhabitants of Siwa.

It was one of three military campaigns planned by Cambyses to conquer the rest of Africa after he invaded Egypt in 525 BC, putting an end to the 26th Dynasty of the Pharaohs and beginning a period of Persian rule that covered much of the next two centuries.

Cambyses later personally led a force up the Nile to conquer Ethiopia, but after annexing the north of the country, he ran short of supplies and had to return, according to Herodotus, who portrayed it as another rash and ill-planned adventure.

"All this about Cambyses being mad comes from a Greek, and the Greeks and the Persians didn't exactly get on well together," says Dr Gaballah Ali Gaballah, the secretary-general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities. Herodotus, who was in Egypt at about 450 to 460 BC, also got much of his information from Egyptians during a time of major rebellion against Persian rule, when they were unlikely to cast Cambyses in a flattering light.

Whether Cambyses' lost desert army will now be unearthed to cast new light on warfare 2,500 years ago is the subject of divided opinion among senior Egyptologists. Dr. Saghir, who will lead the expedition, is confident of success. His colleague at Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, Dr. Gaballah, is phlegmatic, however.

"Classical writers said his army had been drowned in a sandstorm, but there is no other source for this information.

It could have happened. But where? The western desert is a huge area," Gaballah says. "Everyone has his dreams, but we deal in facts, and we don't want to raise hopes. The site will be surveyed, and even if they don't find anything, a negative result is still a result."

The mystery of the lost Persian army may yet linger on.

(c)2000 The Christian Science Publishing Society.

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